Genoa questions

[SteppingStone]

I added an aluminum bowsprint (an older 3 1/2 inch spinnaker pole) attached from under the deck forward, then under the bow crossbeam and out 3 ft - and stayed by two ss stays to each of the bows with ss u-bolts and backing plates. Then I bought a used wire luff drifter from Atlantic Sail Traders. I intalled a winch on the port coaming and 2 eyebolts with snatch blocks on the stern corners. Ran the rigging outside the shrouds to the back corners and then to the winches. Works great. I have the option of using my small working jib or rolling it up and using the drifter. I have a 'sock' for it to make handling easy and can sail upwind to about 50 degress. I do love it - now no one beats me in light air - and they all used to. Some pics on SeabreezeCharter.com Roger Wood - Stepping Stone 123

[amytom]

While I like the idea of a bowspit and adding a drifter or gennacker on a furler, I don't think it's feasable. Adding the guys to hold the tip down, specifically the attachments low on the bows would be extremely difficult to get to the area for backing plates.
Maybe just replacing the jib with a genoa would do the trick for me. The genoa track location though? I borrowed this picture of "Kay Jay" from Yacht World, is this the genoa track location? And I assume the sheets run outside the shrouds right?

Picture borrowed from Yacht World

genoa track.jpg (46.98 KiB) Viewed 18174 times

[thinwater]

I run the chute on the same track.

Yes, the sheet runs under the life-lines. One limitation, however, is that the diamond wires are so wide on the Altair, even if you tried to place the sail inside the shrouds, that you can't get a tight enough sheet angle to point high. A very close reach is possible, and you can tack from there. Overall it is a nice arraignment and I am happy with it. However, I still put the self-tacker back on for the winter - more wind.

I promised you some pictures of my spinnaker bridle, but I keep forgetting my camera. I promise, soon!

[amytom]

I run the chute on the same track.

Yes, the sheet runs under the life-lines. One limitation, however, is that the diamond wires are so wide on the Altair, even if you tried to place the sail inside the shrouds, that you can't get a tight enough sheet angle to point high. A very close reach is possible, and you can tack from there. Overall it is a nice arraignment and I am happy with it. However, I still put the self-tacker back on for the winter - more wind.

I promised you some pictures of my spinnaker bridle, but I keep forgetting my camera. I promise, soon!

How tight can you point with it?

[thinwater]

The pictures I promised Anytom are located at http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/. I couldn't seem to get them to up-load to this site, so I added them there. The explanations are there as well. I had the chute up in a 10-15 knot wind and was getting 7-9 knots on a broad reach. A cold day, but nice.

How high can the genoa point? The tacking angle is ~110 degrees vs ~ 95 degrees with the self tacker, not counting lee-way. With new sails and a good helmsman, perhaps better, but that should give you a comparison.

[amytom]

Nice blog site.

Looking at your pictures It appears that our fordeck is quite different from yours. On our port bow we have a drop-in chain locker which prevents access further foward.
Your bridal appears to be setup to something on the front of the bows, we only have stainless panels there, no mountable hardware. I guess I would just rig a simple bridal between the forward cleats and chocks. As we also don't have the aft rails I could just mount the sheet blocks with webbing aroung the aft cleats. I could temporarily run the sheets up to the single winch mounted behind the helm. Might look like a spiderweb on a starboard tack but would get me started with just a used assym, sheets, and a couple of blocks.

What wind angles can I expect to use the assym? We went out yesterday and the wind was light on the ICW. Heading north we were close hauled at about 5-6 knots. After letting the kids swim while anchored. (in wet suits ) we had a very light run back south. I used makeshift preventors to force wing on wing with the main and jib but still could only maintain a little less than 2 knots. I ended up dropping sails and motoring. This would have been the time for the assym.

[thinwater]

I beleive the PO mounted a pad eye on each beam about 4" from the hull; that is what the bridle and turning blocks are anchored to (zoom-in and you can see them peeking from behind the gusset). Mount the pad-eyes right at the beam ends or simply sling the beam ends. I would not use the bow cleats; too confusing.

The blue line hanging from the tack is the PO tack line. I need to cut it off.

The bridal has stretched; I need to re-tighten after some more use.

The clam cleats are anchored through the flange that mounts the tramp; 1 existing bolt, 1 new hole, all done while laying on the tramp and reaching under. Not bad.

There was no inside access required. Honest!

My kid did not swim that day; the water temperature is still 34F , though she did take the dingy out for a while.

True wind: nearly a beam reach to 150 degrees. Deeper is possible, but slower. Honestly, when the picture was taken I was fooling around; the chute is severely over-trimmed. Normally the traveler be eased to leeward and not on the railing like that. Or the sheet would be eased.

[amytom]

Looks reasonable. I may make a slow progression towards it though. I guess the next question is what are the dimensions of the assym? SailRite shows:
Luff = 40.74
Leach = 37.48
Foot = 20.67
Total area = 631.57

but the PDQ manual states 925 square feet. Both list the same I J P & E

I guess I'll be looking for some spare blocks and a winch or two if anybody has any spares.

Can the assym be pointed any higher than a beam reach?

[thinwater]

Higher than a beam reach? Yes, we did point higher at times, but it is not much faster than the 150% at that point and is a lot more strain.

You really do need 2 winches on starboard (main + chute), though one would do on port. I have a cam cleat to hold the load on both sides, when things are getting sporty. If I only had 1 winch on starboard I would have 2 cam cleats: 1 for the furled genoa and one for the chute. I would not use a stopper on the genoa, and defiantly not on the chute.

I don't know the sizes or how to measure. However, I did get my last chute (Stiletto 27) from Sailrite and I couldn't have been more pleased. It was not the standard Stiletto chute - they did it to my measurements - and it fit perfectly and was very well made. http://stiletto.wildjibe.com/portfolio/ ... hoto_3.jpg. Actually, this is almost a better photo of a chute flying of a bridal.

[amytom]

For the pointing, I was thinking of using the chute instead of the genoa. That way I can also keep the self tacking jib. I can only afford one new sail right now and I want to make it count.

Your sailrite assym you had before, did you put it together yourself? How hard was it?

[thinwater]

No, I did not.

However, I have built a chute before, it came out fine, and it was quite a project. You need a seriously large room, a sewing maching with enough throat clearance, and someone who machine sews like the wind... and that was a chute for a Prindle 18! This is a bigger chute by far, with only about 1600' of stitching involved! I would not tackle it to save money - only because I enjoyed it. When I built my chute it was in the 70s, and reaching chutes for cats were new. I did the design, because the sailmakers I knew refused!

When designing a chute there is a choice to be made between reaching and running; a flatter chute can get close to a beam reach (not quite), but remember, the faster the boat goes the further the wind comes aft. A flat reaching cut will be less powerful down wind, largly becouse it is narrower aloft, but also because it is less full.

A chute is less manueverable in close quarters - short handed - than a genoa. You can't carry it above a broad reach in anything over 12-15 knots of wind, as the forces become too great. It is way faster than the genoa off the wind. I think your choice is sound, just understand that a chute is really a down wind sail that can reach up a bit when the wind is light.

Of course I enjoy flying a chute, with all the required concentration and trimming; some hate it.

[36041]

Tom,

We made our ASM from a Sailrite kit and had no problems with it. I built the entire thing in 1 week and it took 50 hours. I was able to do it all by myself, but having an extra set of hands helped when taping the seams together.

We use a sock to control the raising and lowering as in any wind over 10 knots it is a massive undertaking to lower the sail without first blanketing it with the main or the genoa.

As for sail handling, we added no new winches to control the beast, but rather we use two turning blocks per side, attached to the tow rails. The first block is placed far forward, the second far aft. The forward block is used to route the tack line down and as far to wind ward as possible. Once through that block, we run the line all the way back along the wind ward rail to the aft block, which is located well aft of the primary winches. That block turns the sheet forward to the genoa winch and the line then serves as a control mechanism for the tack.

On the leeward side, the forward block is not used and the ASM control sheet is just routed back through the aft block which turns it forward to the leeward genoa winch. We had to experiment with the proper place to attach the aft turning blocks to get the proper line angle into the winches, but after 3 or 4 tries, we seemed to get it just fine.

Over time, we have stopped running the windward tack all the way back to the cockpit and often just use the windward anchor cleat instead, but we may just be lazy. Good luck.

Tom
Dream Catcher
http://www.tendervittles.net
36041

ASM.jpg (142.95 KiB) Viewed 18064 times

[amytom]

Thanks Tom. So you only have one sheet and one tack attached? Do you douse with the sock during each gybe? or gybe outside the front?

[thinwater]

Nice picture! Summer is coming.

1. The dificulty is that you cannot jibe. On long runs, that is ok. Actually, it apears that the actual tack location is near the centerline, because the tack is so high. Another rope to the lee bow and you could jibe, if you attached a lazy sheet.

2. We jibe outside; that is, we let the tack float out in front of the boat. On the Stiletto we did inside jibes, but that was a high-speed crew coordination thing.

3. Another trick to dropping without the sally, at least on cats, is to go to a low broad reach/run, bring the tack BEHIND the forestay while lossening the tack line. Take it all the way to the windward rail. Then release the sheet, lower and pull; you can get it all on deck in any reasonable wind. Use the bean to your addvantage. Yes, I do use a sally most times, as it also serves as a storage bag - the chute in a bag is too big to fit through a hatch.

[36041]

Tom,

Yeah, we only run one sheet. Because of the size of the sail, to run a second sheet would require almost 100 feet of length for both sides. When we need to jibe, we turn almost dead down and then just walk the sheet forward, around the baby stay and then back to the cockpit. Then I move the tack over to the opposite side and trim away. If the wind is really up, we do use the sock to douse the sail prior to moving it, but usually if the wind is that high, we put the sail away.

Tom
36041
www.tendervittles.net