Inside Genoa Track

Post here if you want to discuss a topic specific to the PDQ Altair.
User avatar
thinwater
admiral
admiral
Posts: 1109
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:08 am
Contact:

Inside Genoa Track

Post by thinwater »

Has anyone installed an inside track to allow tighter sheeting for windward work? I've searched and found discussion, but no word that anyone has actually installed any hardware that would allow routine use. I'm in search of better windward ability.

* I've stretched the boat. That helped, both in speed and reducing leway (because more speed=flow over the foils).
* Watch wieght has helped. As I have owned the boat, I have learned more about what I don't need.
* I'm considering some keel mods, but that will wait 2 years for the next haul-out.
* I'm planning to replace the main--leach stretched out and draft blow aft.

It seems to me that there could be some improvement with a slightly more inboard sheeting angle; the genoa loses its bite well before the boat is pinched. Certainly I would need to wind in a little genoa, to just longer than the shrouds. My last boat, a Stiletto 27, sheeted the genoa inside and it worked well even off the wind. Of course, that sail was cut for a more forward sheeting possition.

Your thoughts?

Has anyone done this?
Writing full time since 2014.
"Rigging Modern Anchors,"Seaworthy Press, https://www.amazon.com/Rigging-Modern-A ... 1948494078
Book Store. http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2017/ ... store.html

amytom
admiral
admiral
Posts: 694
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:57 am
Location: Orlando, FL S/V DogHouse PDQ32009

Re: Inside Genoa Track

Post by amytom »

Funny, I was just looking at your speed polars and was trying to figure out how to match your numbers. I'm also planning to Install tracks in the lower deck step as the blocks on the aft cleats finally tore out the starboard cleat.

Maybe we can get together next week(end) and compare notes? Okay, I'll bring the beer and you can teach me?

Tom

User avatar
thinwater
admiral
admiral
Posts: 1109
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:08 am
Contact:

Re: Inside Genoa Track

Post by thinwater »

To produce the windward data I rigged a temporary lead that ONLY worked in lighter winds and extrapolated the rest. There is too much extrapolation on the table and I should/will recreate the data with the new hull and proposed jib leads. In truth, I never finished the data collection. It's dull.

But I was hoping some smart guy would beat me to it!
Writing full time since 2014.
"Rigging Modern Anchors,"Seaworthy Press, https://www.amazon.com/Rigging-Modern-A ... 1948494078
Book Store. http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2017/ ... store.html

User avatar
Page 83
admiral
admiral
Posts: 455
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 11:48 pm
Location: Annapolis, Md. 36026

Re: Inside Genoa Track

Post by Page 83 »

Have you considered barber-haulers? Will some extra halyard tension pull the pocket in the main forward?

Just like a sixties era fighter plane, shoal draft keels will mush before a full stall. This might show up in your data if you are capturing CMG and magnetic heading to determine slip.
Sandy Daugherty "Page 83" PDQ 36026

User avatar
thinwater
admiral
admiral
Posts: 1109
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:08 am
Contact:

Re: Inside Genoa Track

Post by thinwater »

Barberhaulers. I've had those on 2 prior boats. However, on my prior boats (Prindle 18-2 and Stiletto 27) the genoas did not overlap the shrouds and the sheets were led inside (spinnaker and reachers outside).
a. There is no hard point at the required spot (right beside the winches). Something will need to be added, but before I dig into drilling holes and stiffening the deck, I need a sure plan.
b. With the PDQ 32, unless some sail is rolled in, it is way past the shroud and that is limiting. The sheets are outside and any barber hauler required the sheet to make a Z around the shroud. Auxiliary sheets will need to be led inside. These new sheets would actually function fine on a reach with the sail rolled in a bit, but generally on a reach we roll more out....

Speed Polar. I'm pretty sure some of the extrapolations are wrong as the foils probably overload. On my data sheet I have many figures marked in RED as beyond my comfort zone for healing and strain, and that is often also where the boat begins to have balance problems. Often I back off when a voice in my head tells me that the rudders could lose grip and allow a broach; these are not the over-size rudders you have on the Prindle or Stiletto. And of course, these are targets that happened at some point when the planets were aligned. Not averages. Though now as I look through them and compare them with the performance on the last trip, many are very achievable by my PDQ 32/34! (I never use compass headings for data--GPS and correct out current when practical)

Mainsail adjustments. Yeah, I get the down haul point, but this sail is old. The bolt rope is frayed, the leach falls off like an S in anything over 15 apparent and I just can't get it flat enough in the middle anymore, no matter how I haul down and out. I've taken to reefing earlier, as the sail shape is much better, as is the balance, and the speed nearly the same if there is a breeze. The PDQ 32 likes to reef the main first anyway, as the keel is too far forward.

Main reefs. I'm also considering changing the placements so that the 1st reef is deeper and the second reef is ~ 2 1/2 reef. I'm seeing I have a real tendency to go straight to a 2nd reef and then adjust the furler during the day. Up wind in 20 knots true--common enough--a 2nd reef and 50-70% of the genoa is a nice combination. On the other hand, I seldom feel that the 2nd reef is too much, so a 3rd reef is not called for; I avoid that weather as too much like work! The idea of standing--crawling--on the hard top to rig 3rd reef lines in the sort of weather that asks for them sounds unpleasant; it would be nice to have those pre-rigged.
Writing full time since 2014.
"Rigging Modern Anchors,"Seaworthy Press, https://www.amazon.com/Rigging-Modern-A ... 1948494078
Book Store. http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2017/ ... store.html

User avatar
Page 83
admiral
admiral
Posts: 455
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 11:48 pm
Location: Annapolis, Md. 36026

Re: Inside Genoa Track

Post by Page 83 »

Crab angle is the killer. It's easy to think you are pointing quite high when you are actually mushing sideways, If you have an autohelm you can pick out the heading data on seatalk, compare it to your GPS track then come back later and factor in the current.

I don't log all that data, so I take a quick and dirty check with a hand bearing compass, comparing the cat's wake to the reciprocal of the boat's heading taken with the same compass from the same location. That information is good enough to do some sail tweaking. Anything fancier is overkill on a 20 year old 36 that's one ton or more overweight.

When "Siesta" sells, and if I keep "Page 83" I could get inspired by your success with transom extensions, Drew. And I could go totally over the top and put a dagger board somewhere. I had several conversations with Simon about that. You'll be glad to know he suggested exactly the steps you took, and seemed to think the dagger board had been extensively studied at PDQ years before they built the one-off racing machine.
Sandy Daugherty "Page 83" PDQ 36026

User avatar
thinwater
admiral
admiral
Posts: 1109
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:08 am
Contact:

Re: Inside Genoa Track

Post by thinwater »

Sandy, I hear you, everything you say, but I have taken some data (all GPS) and it seems clear to me that tightening the sheeting angle could help. With genoa the PDQ cannot sail close enough for crabbing to be a factor.

The thing is the leads are all the way out on wide beam, giving a sheeting angle of about 16.3 degrees.

Monohull racing boats often have lead angles in the 6-8 degree range. We don't have the foils for that. Cruising monos are more typically 9-11 degrees. We don't have the foils for that either. My Stiletto 27 had a sheeting angle of 9 degrees, again, with better foils and less windage. But we ain't even close.

I went sailing yesterday with Tom (PDQ Doghouse) in about 10-15 knots and we played with barber hauling the genoa sheet in to about 14 degrees and seemed to get about 4-5 degrees of improved pointing (GPS) at the nearly same boat speed. The improvement in VMG seemed to be about 8% (after calculating for leeway and the reduced speed), which is huge when coupled with the reduced number of tacks. In fact, the sheeting angle is still wider than the PDQ 36 since the cabin top stops me from getting far in (which is probably a good thing--I don't want to take this too far).

Unfortunately, on this boat barber hauling means cross sheeting to the opposing winches, which is not pretty, though it made a good test rig, easy to measure and easy to project lead angles. What seems needed is a short track just outside of the winches and between them with a block low enough to give a good lead to the winch. The sheet can then be controlled with a short (15 feet perhaps) axillary sheet and shackle. It should be out of the way. Because the existing lead is so nice for reaching, I would not want to move the lead permanently or even most days.

We checked a few of the point on the old speed polar I made. With the new hull extension hitting the numbers and even exceeding them was too easy. A little more tweak is thus in order! I figure with improved leads, some minor keel tweaking and a new main in a few years she should keep getting more fun.
Writing full time since 2014.
"Rigging Modern Anchors,"Seaworthy Press, https://www.amazon.com/Rigging-Modern-A ... 1948494078
Book Store. http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2017/ ... store.html

User avatar
Page 83
admiral
admiral
Posts: 455
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 11:48 pm
Location: Annapolis, Md. 36026

Re: Inside Genoa Track

Post by Page 83 »

Yesterday was Gorgeous! Unfortunately I was playing soccer mom.

At the risk of creating a mare's nest over the forward cabin top, a second complete set of jib sheets, track and turning blocks could save you having to go forward to rig for close hauled.
I'm thinking of a lea shore situation where you don't want to spend a lot of time forward on the low side.
Sandy Daugherty "Page 83" PDQ 36026

User avatar
thinwater
admiral
admiral
Posts: 1109
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:08 am
Contact:

Re: Inside Genoa Track

Post by thinwater »

Good ideas, but the clew of the genoa on a 32 is aft of the forward cabin top and aft of the windscreen. In fact, it is not necessary to go forward to do any of this, as the clew is accessible from the cockpit coaming.

This thread (you were there!) (http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/sho ... php?t=2011) seems to settle it for me, that a 12-14 degree lead is probably good for the 32, particularly post 6 by Richard Woods.

Yeah, I wish I could see a barber hauler arraignment that made sense. I'm going to keep thinking on that. Clearly, that is why I posted hear. On my Stiletto I ended up with 2 tracks (stock + another on the ledge between the nacelles and the seats) with a barber hauler between them. Extra strings, but made for great reaching trim. Thus, I'm risking a mare's nest on the coamings. Glad my halyards are at the mast and glad I have 2 winches on each side.

It has also occurred to me I may have to custom fab the track/blocks to get them low enough. Doable in the basement, I believe.
Writing full time since 2014.
"Rigging Modern Anchors,"Seaworthy Press, https://www.amazon.com/Rigging-Modern-A ... 1948494078
Book Store. http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2017/ ... store.html

User avatar
thinwater
admiral
admiral
Posts: 1109
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:08 am
Contact:

Re: Inside Genoa Track

Post by thinwater »

I did a little more testing and a little mock-up building.

Image

Image

I also added more explanation: http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2013/ ... keels.html

I'm thinking this could be straightforward to build and use, inexpensive, and out of the way. Combined with a slight keel mod and a new main, I think she could be considerably more weatherly. Not miracles, but materially better.Thoughts?
Writing full time since 2014.
"Rigging Modern Anchors,"Seaworthy Press, https://www.amazon.com/Rigging-Modern-A ... 1948494078
Book Store. http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2017/ ... store.html

User avatar
thinwater
admiral
admiral
Posts: 1109
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:08 am
Contact:

Re: Inside Genoa Track

Post by thinwater »

Installed and tested! The resulting lead angle is similar to the PDQ 36 (edge of hard-top) and works well. I really like the compact Garhauer snatch blocks. For tacking I simply left a 15' bit of line tied to the clew; when the sail shifted to the new side I threaded thrugh the snatch block straight to the winch (not to the rail) and sheeted it home, leaving the the regular sheets attached. Or I can use the spin sheet.

I moved the track aft, between the winches. Not the best spot, but where the existing genoa likes it. I also added a second sliding car to the rail track.

While I'm pretty happy, the experiment makes it clear to me that the "hot" set-up for a PDQ 32 might well be a 120% genoa sheeted to a track just next to the jammers. When I eventually replace the genoa (if has many years left) I will go 120% and lengthen the track to 4'. The advantages:
* Can use it all the time, even reaching, as the shrouds no longer get interfere. The sheet would run straight forward from the forward winch to a turning block, not down to the rail track.
* No strugle getting the clew inside the shroud but no touching the spreaders.
* Same luff length for good windward work.
* Only a small reduction in area reaching.
* By moving the sheeting location forward it also allows both winches to be used; my location unavoidbly blocks the forward winch from full rotation, which is generally OK for the main. Of course, the sail needs to be designed for the sheeting location.

This would be more like the set-up on the Stilettos, which is simple and works well. A barber-hauler to the midships cleat might also help; I'd have to see the trim.
Writing full time since 2014.
"Rigging Modern Anchors,"Seaworthy Press, https://www.amazon.com/Rigging-Modern-A ... 1948494078
Book Store. http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2017/ ... store.html

bg5w
skipper
skipper
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:46 pm

Re: Inside Genoa Track

Post by bg5w »

Question on Genoa's - Can the stantion base support the load from using a snatch block for the genoa sheet?

Bob Gruber
Island Time 32

User avatar
thinwater
admiral
admiral
Posts: 1109
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:08 am
Contact:

Re: Inside Genoa Track

Post by thinwater »

I seriously doubt it. The load, including turning, is over one ton in a breaze. While you may not need a track if you can find a good average location, but you will need a backing plate to distribute the load. The risk is not so much damaging the base as causing leaks into the core.

Out by the toe rail there is no where to hide the backing. On my boat, the PO simply placed a track on the outside and a row of bolts with SS fender washers and SS acrorn nuts on the inside; this gave pleanty of load distribution. We hang stuff from them. I understand SV Doghouse pealed the carpet back an hid the bolts.

For the inside track, you drop the ceiling and there is lotsa room to work.

Either way, you need to drill, remove core, fill, and redrill. Butyl is great for bedding tracks.
Last edited by thinwater on Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Writing full time since 2014.
"Rigging Modern Anchors,"Seaworthy Press, https://www.amazon.com/Rigging-Modern-A ... 1948494078
Book Store. http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2017/ ... store.html

User avatar
thinwater
admiral
admiral
Posts: 1109
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:08 am
Contact:

Re: Inside Genoa Track

Post by thinwater »

"by Page 83 » Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:05 am

Yesterday was Gorgeous! Unfortunately I was playing soccer mom.

At the risk of creating a mare's nest over the forward cabin top, a second complete set of jib sheets, track and turning blocks could save you having to go forward to rig for close hauled.
I'm thinking of a lea shore situation where you don't want to spend a lot of time forward on the low side."

Sandy, that is exactly what I ended up doing. I also changed them to continuous sheets (like the Stiletto); on the 32 (34?) they actually run across the back of the cockpit and make tacking easier. If I am tacking frequently, I detach the outside sheet (both are attached to the clew with soft shackles) and just use the inner sheet. The improvement to windward has been mind blowing; she was often underpowered and poorly balanced with the small jib, and the lead angle for the genoa was a reaching angle. Now the balance is good, the lead angle loose enought for a cat with LA keels, but tight enough, and the power is there. Two feet of LWL help too. Sailing to weather is now fun. Though I'm still working on the speed polar, the increase in VMG to windward by GPS is >20% and steering is easier.

Next time I paint the bottom (18 months) I'll be making some subtle keel mods aimed at improving balance and tacking. I'm still working that through in my head. They will be minor, closer to fairing than redesign.
Writing full time since 2014.
"Rigging Modern Anchors,"Seaworthy Press, https://www.amazon.com/Rigging-Modern-A ... 1948494078
Book Store. http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2017/ ... store.html

amytom
admiral
admiral
Posts: 694
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:57 am
Location: Orlando, FL S/V DogHouse PDQ32009

Re: Inside Genoa Track

Post by amytom »

Finally got the Genoa made. Kit from SailRite. The biggest skill learned in making a sail of this size is how to fix a sewing machine. :(

Fitted the sail to the boat today and hope to take it out this weekend.

Next will be the assym.
Attachments
image.jpg
image.jpg (32.23 KiB) Viewed 17549 times

Post Reply