Buying. Understanding ownership costs.

PDQ issues applicable across all PDQ Yachts (or if you can't find a place for something, it probably belongs here for now)
Post Reply
aubreygus
deckhand
deckhand
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:56 pm

Buying. Understanding ownership costs.

Post by aubreygus »

I apologize if this is a recurring theme (I can imagine that it may be) and/or if there's already a thread out there addressing all this stuff (I couldn't find one, exactly)...:

Hello everyone. New forum member here. I am trying to position myself (and my finances, of course) to be ready to purchase in July of 2014. I would prefer sail, but to be truthful to my situation, I think the PDQ34 power cat is more applicable. I'll be bareboating one in December as a bit of a personal test. My thought is to go for at least a 2006 model with the larger Yanmars. I guess I mention that initially just to see if there are any out there for sale and to solicit any information on where the market is pricing these boats presently - (?).

Further, I was wondering if anyone would like to chime in on the true cost of ownership. My rough monthly estimates are as follows: Bank note on $240,000 / 20 years = $1900. Insurance (out to 125 NM offshore) = $260. Fuel for 150 NM worth of travel at 7 kts = $200. Transient dockage fees = $375. Average monthly maintenance / parts = $150. TOTAL MONTHLY COST OF OWNERSHIP = $2885 (????).

Are those numbers anywhere in the ballpark from the perspective of you seasoned vets out there? I'm hoping those are on the conservative side, but I bet I'm missing something (B-reak O-ut A-nother T-housand, right?). For instance, are y'all hauling out once per year? What does that cost? Am I dreaming on transient slip fees for a beamy cat?

My wife and I feel like we're well positioned for the lifestyle and we're seriously considering the change. I work a 3 weeks on / 3 weeks off schedule and she's a freelance writer, so we could ostensibly be cruising the boat in relative freedom every other month. Sounds like an ideal early retirement life to me!

At any rate, I'm sure several of you here went through similar anxieties about the poor investment choice of purchasing a boat versus the dream of an improved lifestyle, so if you'd like to share your experiences with a new kid on the block, your advice/stories/warnings/etc would be valued!

Thanks in advance,

Gus
Tanah-Keeta
admiral
admiral
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 1:30 pm
Location: Washington, NC (34108)

Re: Buying. Understanding ownership costs.

Post by Tanah-Keeta »

TK III... hull # 108 ... will be on the market in November. It has the 110 engines.
Ron McDaniel
TK III 34108
duetto
admiral
admiral
Posts: 984
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:18 am
Location: ICW (32043)

Re: Buying. Understanding ownership costs.

Post by duetto »

hi gus,

couple of reactions:

1) insurance sounds low.
2) you don't mention dockage/storage other than transient
3) i'd have a bucket for repairs/upgrades
4) 150 nm of travel will go by awfully quick if you take many cruises
john & diane cummings
duetto mv34 #23
aubreygus
deckhand
deckhand
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:56 pm

Re: Buying. Understanding ownership costs.

Post by aubreygus »

Thanks for the couple of replies.

The insurance number actually came from a quote that I just got, but I'll budget in higher to be on the safe side.

I only mentioned transient dockage because I figured that's more of a worse case scenario (money-wise) than having a permanent slip...I was figuring on a different stopping point every time I have to leave the boat.

I would like to understand more about haul out fees, storage fees, winterization fees and how often y'all are doing that with your boat...if you have the time.

Duly noted on the 150nm going fast...I'll budget in double that if I ever make it far enough financially to be able to afford the boat to begin with!

Thanks again for taking the time to respond.
User avatar
thinwater
admiral
admiral
Posts: 1110
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:08 am
Contact:

Re: Buying. Understanding ownership costs.

Post by thinwater »

Why not sail, if you would actually prefer that? The cost will be less all around.

"Truthful to situation" is cryptic. Sailing can be learned (and motor some while learning), certainly a cat in that size range can be singlehanded, draft is similar, and the fuel usage is far less.

As for costs, you've understated some things (slips) and missed some (annual hauling, home slip). Yet I'm sure my costs run per 1/3 of that. No fuel to speak of and lower initial cost were large items.

Good luck.
Writing full time since 2014.
"Rigging Modern Anchors,"Seaworthy Press, https://www.amazon.com/Rigging-Modern-A ... 1948494078
Book Store. http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2017/ ... store.html
aubreygus
deckhand
deckhand
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:56 pm

Re: Buying. Understanding ownership costs.

Post by aubreygus »

Tom,

You're probably right. Sail would be better. There, that didn't take much convincing did it?! I've sailed before myself and used to have a 33' sloop...I guess I was just worried that it would be too much of a hassle with just the wife and I. I should look at it as an even better opportunity to get her to really love boats! (Although I sure do like the idea of that flying bridge on the power cats.)

Obviously, I've still got alot of thinking through to do on this...which is why I'm starting this early. What do you estimate for slip fees? $350 per month is actually understated, huh? And the annual haul out?

Thanks for helping me get my head around this entire idea. You're right, "truthful to situation" was a bit cryptic and probably just me thinking a bit too pessimistically.

So, all that being said, besides the extra two feet of molded stairs aft, did PDQ change the hull design from the late 80's until they were bought by Pearson? Is there a general consensus on "the best model year" or anything like that?

Count me in as an interested buyer of a 34/36 sailing PDQ now too! Thanks for the advice.
User avatar
maxicrom
admiral
admiral
Posts: 219
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:29 pm
Location: II the Max (PDQ36 #12), Washington DC

Re: Buying. Understanding ownership costs.

Post by maxicrom »

Your numbers on the loan and insurance are probabaly OK,

What you probably need to figure is that you are going to find areas where there are no anchorages and have to rent a slip. Also where will your home port be? Yacht Club, marina, mooring, etc...? At the yacht club where we keep our PDQ 36 in DC, slip fees run about $750 montly + electricity - the yacht club is a much better rate than the local commercial marinas (you can do significantly better on the bay or down river - but are not near public transportation). Transient rates are usually per ft. per day.

As the one post addressed for any boat you need a bucket for repairs (especially cruising) and should consider that with any catamaran (17'+ beam) only certain marinas can haul your boat, it usually requires a 60 ton lift - just for the width. If you are cruising you'll need to have a kitty for land transport for shopping etc... A good basic dinghy and motor are about $2500-3500. Even if do a fair amount of sailing, there will be days when it's just not practical - at just under $4.00 a gallon for diesel and $3.50 for gas.

Consider if you are running a refrigeration that there will be additional fuel and maintenance costs, solar panels, or a gen set if you have AC.

Unless you are willing to adopt a lean lifestyle, we've found full time liveaboard to equivalent to renting a mid-level apartment.
Mike & Linda
S/V II the Max
User avatar
thinwater
admiral
admiral
Posts: 1110
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:08 am
Contact:

Re: Buying. Understanding ownership costs.

Post by thinwater »

$100/month in Deale, and there is a PDQ 36 just down the row.

Transient fees are all over too, from $35 (small town)-$150 (beach town) per night for that size.
Writing full time since 2014.
"Rigging Modern Anchors,"Seaworthy Press, https://www.amazon.com/Rigging-Modern-A ... 1948494078
Book Store. http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2017/ ... store.html
aubreygus
deckhand
deckhand
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:56 pm

Re: Buying. Understanding ownership costs.

Post by aubreygus »

Thanks for your willingness to share thoughts and expertise. I can see this forum would be a mighty valuable source of information for any PDQ owner, and hopefully will continue to be for this potential future owner.

Mike & Linda - I like looking at it in terms of renting a mid-level apartment...that's just about been what's in the back of my mind. We split our time between New Orleans and Austin, but we're thinking of giving up the place in Austin (we DEFINITELY know what is means to miss New Orleans!) and pouring that mortgage money into this boat idea instead. Yes, the investment is not as smart, but the lifestyle sure sounds appealing. I've obviously confused everyone regarding my thoughts on a home port. I was hoping to avoid having one to be honest. Since we're so moble and my company pays me transportation to/from my worksite, we could ostensibly leave the boat in a different place at the end of each time we've used her...that's why I was asking about average transient fees (& because I assumed that if I had a good guess of transient fees it would only be convservative as compared to home port fees). I guess that question is much easier asked than answered and is probably a bit of a pipe dream. If that's the case, I imagine I'd choose a home port somewhere in southwest Florida.

Does everyone haul out annually? Is that necessary from a maintenance standpoint or do folks just do it because of the winter weather / hurricane season? Anyone have an average guess at haul out costs?

I like Tom's comment about his costs being about a third of those that I initially projected...more reason to lean toward sail.

Thanks again y'all!
User avatar
maxicrom
admiral
admiral
Posts: 219
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:29 pm
Location: II the Max (PDQ36 #12), Washington DC

Re: Buying. Understanding ownership costs.

Post by maxicrom »

For the last 10 years we've kept our PDQ 36 in DC as our "condo" - taking small trips in the summer but basically using it 4 nights a week and while not crusing getting a pretty good use for our investment. And... as you say it's way cooler to live on boat. My wife was a liveabord in DC when I met her on a 34' houseboat, I bought an old wooden sailboat as my quarters in Seattle while commercial fishing in Alaska. For me living/working aboard a 40' salmon seiner for 3 years from June to October as part of a 5 person crew pretty much cured me of the "sail off into the sunset dream" (it's a long drive at 10kts from Seattle to Valdez). Nonetheless my love of boats and time on the water has never waned and I've been blessed with a partner in crime.

New Orleans and Austin are probably not far out of the DC / Baltimore slip ranges - limited decent accomodations. As Drew mentions Deale which is about 40 minutes from Annapolis and an hour from either DC or Baltimore has reasonable slip fees (we will be moving ourt boat to the bay in the next year or so). The yacht club where we have been keeping the boat has floating docks, nice facilities, good security, a clubhouse and bar + it's a 5 minute walk to the metrorail (and 5 minutes from the tidal basin, Cherry Blossoms, golf, the Jefferson Memorial and other monuments). If you are looking at long term moorage, it's important to look beyond the membership fees for yacht clubs - at Capital the return on the fees were two years when we joined. monthly slip rates are $7.50 per ft for members vs. $14 at the local commercial marinas. The area is in the process of a major redevelopment effort and the fees have gone up since we joined. Capital also has a cruising status which has discounted monthly dues for cruising members - with the allowance to resume full membership on return. Also many yacht clubs offer reciprical priviledges at other clubs such as club access and discounted transient rates, so it's something to consider. After commercial fishing I never considered myself yacht club material, but after doing the math it was a better deal - all clubs are not alike. Luckily CYC is pretty low key and beyond a few official / traditional events si very casual and has gained a great reputation with transients in the DC area.

II the Max is a unique PDQ 36 with a single Yanmar diesel in the port hull - we burn about 3/4 to a gallon per hour at about 6 kts, I added a Torqeedo electric outboard to the Stbd hull to assist with docking. The system works great. Under sail we average about 4-5 kts (we are not great sailors, but getting better).

Good luck to you we've had II the Max for about 8 years now and it's all the boat we need...
Mike & Linda
S/V II the Max
User avatar
Page 83
admiral
admiral
Posts: 455
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 11:48 pm
Location: Annapolis, Md. 36026

Re: Buying. Understanding ownership costs.

Post by Page 83 »

Your cruising costs will vary a bit depending on location. We found that staying out of Marinas and sailing more than motoring was a lot less expensive in the Bahamas in spite of the alarming prices of groceries and fuel. There are some very experienced old hands around who are willing to share their tricks for getting by. But in addition to that repair bucket, you will need an airfare bucket, because sailing and long range planning just don't mix. Any king of medical emergency can turn into a very expensive can of worms, too. The two most dangerous things on a cruising sailboat are a watch and a calendar!

That said, I'm envious of your work situations! Just go!
Sandy Daugherty "Page 83" PDQ 36026
lauraj
1st mate
1st mate
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:47 am
Location: On the hard in Ft. Pierce FL hull 34008
Contact:

Re: Buying. Understanding ownership costs.

Post by lauraj »

so, is anyone able to weigh in on the question of how often to consider hauling out for cleaning/painting?
User avatar
Page 83
admiral
admiral
Posts: 455
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 11:48 pm
Location: Annapolis, Md. 36026

Re: Buying. Understanding ownership costs.

Post by Page 83 »

the very most expensive bottom paints talk about three years effectiveness, and it is the condition of your bottom paint that regulates haulouts. Some diesel inboards with saildrives need to be hauled to change the oil, annually. I think that is the case with the LRC 36's, but I hope Terry will weigh in on that. barring major repairs (not a realistic assumption) if you stay in warm waters (North Carolina and south) you might go 3 years between haulouts. But your insurance will likely require you to be north of South Carolina from June to the end of October, Hurricane Season. There may be an exception for South Texas; you should ask. I would set aside a month to get from NOLA to the Florida East Coast, but it can be done faster. On the East Coast. from Maine to Florida, you can get to a major airport in less than two hours just about every 180 miles. I'm just guessing, but I think you could find a marina to accommodate an 18' wide cat near every large city. That will mean on the end of the dock, or sometimes on a bulkhead in 3+ feet of water. You wife will need some kind of transportation. Does she like to ride a bike? a light scooter?
Otherwise she will need a cab to get anywhere, except at the very rare marina with a beater-loaner. Frequently a marina will have a convenience store, others are in walking distance to a Grocery. All of them can receive FedEx/UPS shipments, and most offer wifi.

Your next question is will you wife be enthusiastic about living on a boat?
Sandy Daugherty "Page 83" PDQ 36026
User avatar
SecondWind
admiral
admiral
Posts: 404
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 8:57 am
Location: Punta Gorda, Fl (33950)
Contact:

Re: Buying. Understanding ownership costs.

Post by SecondWind »

I hauled every two years (using Pettit Trinidad) and change the oil at that time (you can check it from the engine rooms-if it looks milky, i.e. water, the haul immediately, repair and replace the oil). If you are in a extreme growth area like Boot Key Harbor in Marathon you may see considerably less time on the paint. On our present boat we hauled at the survey three years ago, had blister repairs done and had a hard epoxy barrier coat applied before bottom painting (hard bottom paint-brand unknown). We're showing signs of needing repainting, but our diver feels that it will probably last until the upcoming spring.
Terry Green
s/v Second Wind
36040
Post Reply