Water Filters--Specifically PDQ 32, but other options also

PDQ issues applicable across all PDQ Yachts (or if you can't find a place for something, it probably belongs here for now)
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thinwater
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Water Filters--Specifically PDQ 32, but other options also

Postby thinwater » Mon May 19, 2014 10:33 am

I'm beginning a project for Practical Sailor on water filters, and I generally start by picking something for myself. I've long used hose-end filters (Camco makes a nice one for $10 at Walmart), which helped before my marina put in a new well, but I want to upgrade the water system a bit.

Specific to the PDQ 32, the available spaces seem to leave me with a ~ 10" high limit, if I want to stay under the benches, which would be most functional. I would prefer a universal housing, as they give easy access to many standard cartridges. Filters Fast seems like a good source for many things.

Have any of you installed water filters? What worked?

----

Not interested in RO. I've installed big units (100,000 GPD) in the oil field and understand the tech perfectly well, but I'm a coastal sailor.
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Re: Water Filters--Specifically PDQ 32, but other options al

Postby amytom » Mon May 19, 2014 1:53 pm

We put a Home Depot style filter with compression quick couplings on either end so it could lay in the bottom of the locker with no issues. We also installed a drinking water outlet at the sink and that is the only place the filtered water goes.

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Re: Water Filters--Specifically PDQ 32, but other options al

Postby eepstein » Mon May 19, 2014 10:49 pm

Hi Drew: I purchased this one. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Survival-UV-Wat ... 0968716142

I have yet to install it. It's still in the box. Want to use it for testing?

Best,
Eric
Eric & Bonnie Epstein
s/v Desert Star, PDQ36, Hull 49
Annapolis, MD

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Re: Water Filters--Specifically PDQ 32, but other options al

Postby thinwater » Tue May 20, 2014 9:29 am

^^ Intersting.

As I investigate the subject all manner of curious facts arise:
* NSF and ANSI certify filtration devices in 3 catagories (particle filtration, organics/metals/cysts, micobilological), yet only a small portion of the players go to the expense; primarily those targeted at the household market, not those for marine and backcoutry use.
* Some very big names are not certified, including Seagull/First Need, and many product lines from big makers.
* Only ~ 8 systems are certified for microbial purifcation, all of them RO. Most makers have separate product labling (Seagull, for example) for states that require NSF support for all claims!
* WHO and EPA studies both confirm very clearly that demineralized water is not good for you. I would have assumed any danger from continuous use of distilled/RO/DI water was pure urban legand, but they've got convinsing data. We need the calcium and many other minerals, beyond what our diet supplies. Now that there are some big RO projects in place, the numbers are big enough for real studies.
* The above does not apply to watermakers. They simply don't remove enough minerals to cause a problem. It is RO treatment of tap water that is a problem.

And then some more obvious things:

* Water varies across the country. Much of CA is 3-5 times as high in TDS and sulfate as the Chesapeake area, giving them different problems.
* Most cold climate water problems are actually from poor winterization; if less than 20% PG is used in the lines, all manner of creatures grow and ferment. I've been doing some testing this winter and have fermented many winterization fluids into foul brews.
* We treat our water systems like a glass of water left out for weeks, poured into a cup that wasn't clean. Any chlorine certainly disipates within a few days. Bugs can fly in the vent/overflow. The system has no flow for weeks at a time. It's fortunate that aggresive human pathenogens are relativly rare.

UV is an intersesting idea.
* Is the dose enough? About 10 milliwatt/cm2s is required. If 3 gpm/200ml/s, 15 watt lamp (10% in the correct range), the dose should be just enough, though short-circuting is always a risk.
* The lamp will need cleaning. I don't know how often, but I suspect more than once per season.
* How much UV is absorbed by the lamp glass? This is a problem in the low wavelengths that are required.

I suspect the flow rate may be too high for the lamp, but I suspect that on boat pressure, the flow will be less.

As good an idea as any. Not very many products like that.
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Re: Water Filters--Specifically PDQ 32, but other options al

Postby thinwater » Tue May 20, 2014 9:49 am

Actually, EPA studies suggest 0.2mW/cm2s, about 20 times more than I stated. More UV is needed to get 99+ reduction unless everything is just perfect... which it is not.
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Re: Water Filters--Specifically PDQ 32, but other options al

Postby thinwater » Tue May 20, 2014 2:14 pm

I also suspect that the UV (this is UV C radiation, which is very damaging--very little UV C reaches us from the sun due to ozone absorption) will destroy the structural integrity at pressure plastic housing in less than a year if left on 24/7. There will also be heating problems with no flow. A SS housing would make more sense. Of course, you can replace the plastic portion of the housing cheaply.
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Re: Water Filters--Specifically PDQ 32, but other options al

Postby thinwater » Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:09 pm

I finally settled on a simple 0.5 micron carbon block filter installed in the front salon locker, serving the galley cold water. This is enough for me, since I believe in the quality of US water, and yet it provides substantial protection against a bad batch while cruising the Chesapeake.

http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2014/ ... rsion.html
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Re: Water Filters--Specifically PDQ 32, but other options al

Postby eepstein » Thu Jun 05, 2014 8:44 am

Thanks Drew. I may do the same with the internal water system. The would save space as the 3 stage-UV unit is large. I'd like to play with a way to use the 3 stage-UV unit to filter rain water off of the hard top. I have it filling a couple jerry jugs. I use the water for washing the deck or sun showers. It can get somewhat 'ripe' though. As we keep the boat on a mooring, (and its 4 miles to a marina), water is precious. I have a Pur water maker, but it did not work when I purchased the boat and will be a future investment to fix. I doubt I'll work on that until we actually have a date to go south again. 18 months or so away.
Eric & Bonnie Epstein
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Annapolis, MD

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Re: Water Filters--Specifically PDQ 32, but other options al

Postby thinwater » Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:56 am

A few tips:

1. Filters fast is cheapest place to get most filters, and they have LOTs of stuff.

2. Check this out, for a Seagull substitute. Very impressive, even filters out viruses, 25% of the price. I would use a settling and a prefilter for rainwater.
http://www.pentairaqua.com/pro/en-US/pr ... rd-series/
http://www.filtersfast.com/Pentek-16029 ... System.asp
The really neat thing is that in addition to serving as a global microbe barrier, it also fits the cheaper carbon block filters for when in the US.

Reduces particles as small as 0.15 micron in size by mechanical means

Membrane filtration provides 99.9999% reduction of bacteria and 99.9999% reduction of virus by mechanical means

Combined carbon block and sediment pre-filtration for extended life and chlorine taste and odor reduction
Utilizes highly asymmetric polyethersulfone membrane with proprietary hydrophilic formulation for immediate wetting and high flow
Double o-ring end cap seals for absolute sealing in PENTEK 3G housings


3. Probably all you really need is a prefilter and then a 0.5 micron carbon block. Cheap. Me, I would buy the 10" 3G housing with 1/2" taps and get a cbc-10 filter. To up-grade, just buy the mg-10mcb cartidge later.
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Re: Water Filters--Specifically PDQ 32, but other options al

Postby eepstein » Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:40 pm

Fantastic. Thanks.
Eric & Bonnie Epstein
s/v Desert Star, PDQ36, Hull 49
Annapolis, MD

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Re: Water Filters--Specifically PDQ 32, but other options al

Postby thinwater » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:49 pm

Rainwater. I've gotten a lot furter into the water treatment and filtration article, and I finally got back to thinking about eepstein's rainwater question.

Bcause he is not a full time cruiser, pretending the collection surface (hard top) is free of bird crap etc. is unrealistic. Semi-clean is the best we can hope for. Really, the best source of info on this topic is WHO (World Health ORganization) and folks like that who think about the 3rd world. A few ideas, and I would love comments.

1. Forget jerry cans. They can't be cleaned, they restrict airflow (anearobic), and they restrict some filter options. Instead, a 5-gallon bucket with a bug net (mosquitoes will find it). Keep it under the hard top (less sun and fal-out).

2. Filter the water on the way in. There are 3rd world answers and there are US answers:

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/CAMP-352
http://berkeywaterfilterfolks.com/resou ... -purifier/
http://wpapotters.blogspot.com/2010/08/ ... oject.html

Water caught and filtered in this way will certainly be suitable for everything but drinking and will not get funky. The buckets are easy to clean, as are the filters.

Need to convert this to drinking water?

1. Let it settle for a day.
2.Chlorinate. I would put a tablespoon of bleach in the bucket and let that sit for 30 minutes.
3. Then, I would have a spigot on the bucket ~ 2 inches above the bottom and would drain it into the water tank through a 5 micron filter, taking s long as it takes. The final on-board tap water filtation filtration (0.5 micron NSF 53 carbon block) will finish the job to drinking water standard.

I need to some testing on this, but I'm betting this is more practical than any tank and cartridge filter system.
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Re: Water Filters--Specifically PDQ 32, but other options al

Postby thinwater » Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:54 pm

I also noticed that the PDQ 32 does not have a screen on the water tank vent. That would explain the bugs that have wondered in. You wouldn't leave your tea sitting in the backyard for a week, uncovered, would you?

I added a $12 screen for about 15 minutes work (most of that was driving to West Marine). Works fine, even as an overflow. The smallest Shurflo stainer.

http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2014/ ... -back.html

Funny that it works out that every tank can be improved with vent control:
* Holding tank - stink
* Gasoline tank - less water absorption, less fuel loss, and less oxidation
* Fresh water - mosquito control
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Re: Water Filters--Specifically PDQ 32, but other options al

Postby Mongoosemagic » Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:14 am

I installed a Seagull water filter. This is a drinking water only system. It has it's own dedicated spigot which I installed by the galley sink. Even when the water sits in the tanks for over a month in the summer, the water still has no taste or odor. Great system.

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Re: Water Filters--Specifically PDQ 32, but other options al

Postby thinwater » Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:14 pm

Seagull has done a great job with marketing, but they are 4x over priced and not NSF certified. I think the times have passed them by.

Pentek dvg-50

Fits in a $12 housing. The beauty of mass production.
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Re: Water Filters--Specifically PDQ 32, but other options al

Postby thinwater » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:31 pm

Digging into rainwater. This is sort of targeted at eepstein's situation, but I'm working on a number of articles so I thought I would share some very preliminary stuff, for feed back.

Bag filters. I pulled some of the most disgusting water possible from a neighbors unused boat cockpit. I stirred it up to make it worse. Clean, the 1 micron cartridge flows 3 gpm with a 4' head, and the bag flows over 20 gpm with just a hose in the top. I started by testing 1 and 5 micron bags side-by-side along with a 1 micron cartridge and a 0.02micron membrane:
(left to right: no filter, 5m bag , 1m cart, 1m bag, 0.02m)

Image

After settling they look like this. I need to take a good photo of the settled bottoms, but the bottom line is the 1m bag did better than the 1m cartridge (will depend on brand/model) and the amount of sediment is about 95-98% less (samples still drying in oven).

Image

The 1 micron bags look like this new...

Image

And like this after filtering 5 gallons of terrible water. The flow had not really slowed. Given that this water was 100-1000 times (I will back this up with analysis) worse than anything you would get on the roof, the bag will last at least a year and can be laundered a few times. It could be stuffed in a 5 gallon bucket with a ~ 4" hole in the lid (the ring is hard and they are designed to hang from it), in the mouth of a jerry can, or a holder could be contrived from some 4" PVC and some hardware cloth (something to space the bag from the pipe wall).

Image

At this point the water is probably clean enough to go in the tank, if the roof was scrubbed once in a while and if there is good filtration on the tap. But certainly you won't build sludge in the tank, and if the water is used only for washing, it will be far nicer than without filtration. Assuming the water is from a clean roof (this sump was truly nasty), filtered in this way and filtered through and NSF 53 filter on the boat, the water should be as good (better) than tap water. Not bad. If you are on the boat, discarde the first little bit before collecting.

A $5.70 solution. McMaster/Carr
http://www.mcmaster.com/#=sjxdhy

If anybody tries this, please share some feedback. I will be testing this all summer.

See full post here.
http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2014/ ... ation.html
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