Carb gunk Ethanol?

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amytom
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Carb gunk Ethanol?

Post by amytom »

I had a problem with my dinghy engine last weekend. It's a 4HP 4cycle Yamaha and it wouldn't start at all. Brought it home for repair and found the carb gunked up pretty bad. The float chamber looked like it was full of bee's wax; the needle valve was stuck and the jets and nozzles were mostly clogged. I cleaned it up the best I could but the idle jet was stuck and I couldn't get it out, I may eventually replace the carb ($160) but for now the idle is adjusted a little high.

I was wondering if that gunk was related to ethanol and maybe that could be part of my problem with the main engines. I've rebuilt the carbs on my main engines but they still start hard and don't like to idle. (not to mention the tilt brackets are freezing up)

Any thoughts?

P.S. I always lock the dink engine with a padlock through the mounting bolt handles, seems like I have to replace the lock every 3 months due to rust. I've tried the "rust proof" ones with no luck. What does everyone else use?
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Re: Carb gunk Ethanol?

Post by Cat Tales »

As for your dink engine, we have experienced the same kind of problems. I have a newer 8hp Yamaha with less than 20 hours on it, but it sits without being run for long periods. After cleaning out the same kind of gunk you found, I can mostly keep her running half choked and medium to full throttle only. I'll be replcing that carb and draining the carb bowl every time we store for more than 2 weeks. I've also been told that Star Tron's Enzyme Fuel Treatment is one of the best to combat ethanol and fuel storage.

For locks we use the rubber coated outdoor pad locks (with the rubber key hole cover). The trick is to soak it with WD40 before using, then respray them every few months. They have lasted us about 2 years.
Chris & Kelly Haretos
Formally of s/v Cat Tales, 36081
Boynton Beach, FL
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Be carful re high idle - it can shear pins and damage the tr

Post by thinwater »

The only real cure I have ever found is to run them often. Even if you are not going out, run them every few week, all winter. I have had great success with this method. It does mean getting out in the snow; it's worth it. Easier than fixing.
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Re: Carb gunk Ethanol?

Post by Tanah-Keeta »

There is a new stabilizer made by Stabil that is especially for ethanol fuels. It is blue instead of red. I was told that the red stuff does not work with ethanol at all. A friend of mine that sells boats and motors says that the white gummy stuff is common especially when hard pre-formed hoses are used... something with the vulcanizing process.
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Re: Carb gunk Ethanol?

Post by duetto »

we've had 2 experiences with ethanol: 1) gravity fed, on engine fuel tank. the ethanol makes the water come out of suspension and become solid water. with the on engine tank, gravity makes water settle in carb bowl. no start. drain and things will be fine until the next morning. then drain again. did not discover startron until later, see following. 2) we laid up an engine (external tank) for 2 months. ethanol clogged carb. dismantled and cleaned and started using startron. have had absolutely no problems in 2+ years since. we do not use motor for periods of up to 2 months and then we use a lot for a while.
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Re: Carb gunk Ethanol?

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This will win the prize for weird dink engine stories. At the end if the season two years ago I winterized my 6hp Tohatsu 4 stroke dinghy engine with Salt-Away, ran the bowl clean and sprayed fogging oil in as it revved up on the last fumes, and then fogged and spun the engine by had. Oh what a good boy I am. Then I just set the tank aside, outside, probably with ethanol in it, for 20 months. When I decided to take the dinghy on a recent trip, I siphoned the gas into a 1 gal glass jug. There were a few drops of water and some crud in the bottom of the jug, then a layer of gasoline, and then, floating on top of the gas was something like a thin clear oil, with a fuzzy white fungus-like cap. What fluid floats on gasoline? What was that cream-white viscious cloud?. This is where I should have stopped. But no, I gotta screw it up some more. I siphoned what I believed was the good gas from the middle of the jug back into the same tank after rinsing it out with stove alcohol. Then I drained the hose, but didn't try to clean it out, plugged it in and expected the engine to start on the first pull as it had every year since new. Not to happen. I pulled and pulled, choked and pulled, squeezed and pulled, let it sit and pulled, with never a cough. In absolute desperation, I squirted a cloud of butane lighter fluid into the carb, and it ran for a couple seconds. I did that a few times, and checked the plug, which was dry and obviously sparked. I haven't been able to start it since, and will try cleaning the carb out. Any ideas? And no, I'm not going to run it on lighter fluid.....
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Re: Carb gunk Ethanol?

Post by Tanah-Keeta »

I had a lot of problems with my 9.9 engines' carbs... duly noted in other posts... but I was usually enroute and my cleaning solution of choice was carb and choke cleaner and compressed air. Recently my 8 hp 2 stroke stopped running from some of the stuff mentioned above. I went to my auto store and bought a gallon can of carb cleaner. It has a parts rack in the can. Just take the carb apart and dip all the metal pieces fo 30 minutes. Wash them off with water and blow them dry annd they are like new..... all those little passages are clean. It costs $20 but it is worth it to me to know that I can do it right the first time.
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Re: Carb gunk Ethanol?

Post by Page 83 »

Thanks Ron: I tried that carb cleaner in the gallon pail with the little basket inside. It worked great. I didn't leave the throttle body in the dip for too long, there was a precaustion on the can about removing floats and plactic parts, but it did clean up nice. I had a half teaspoon-full of light amber-colored gel in the bowl, it would really play havoc with the jets, but its all gone now. I'll give the engine a test run tomorrow. Played hooky today and went sailing with four grandmothers. Engines running great on the PDQ.
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Re: Carb gunk Ethanol?

Post by amytom »

After my manual cleaning of the carb on the dink engine it ran fine but I tried it out earlier this weekend and it wouldn't start. Tapping on the float bowl would get it to turn over for a couple of seconds. Looks like I'll try the bucket idea next.

Thanks
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Re: Carb gunk Ethanol?

Post by amytom »

P.S.
another quick question, I'm going to pull one of my main engines today for maintenance. How do I jumper it out to run on the test stand?
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Re: Carb gunk Ethanol?

Post by Tanah-Keeta »

It has been a long time but I think you connect the hot to the brown wire connection on the solenoid and the ground to any convenient spot but I would get someone else's opinion first.

On the parts dip, take your carb body totally apart.. float needle, jets idle and main and anything else you can remove. Any rubber or plastic, do not dip.
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Re: Carb gunk Ethanol?

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I take pictures as I disassemble things. Helps me get them back tog :oops: ether.
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Re: Carb gunk Ethanol?

Post by Cat Tales »

E15 EPA mandate!

I received the following in a .pdf from Ocean High Performance Marine (a Yamaha dealer in South Florida). Thought it might be of interest to many of you. I was not able to post the actual .pdf, but if you email me: svCatTales at gmail dot com, I'll gladly forward you the file. It also suggests an important measure to help combat the effects of our current ethanol problems, by using a 10 micron filter.


Thursday, August 6, 2009 Online Volume No. 3
1
Ethanol
What’s happening?
To date, more than 30,000 marine industry employees, industry groups and boating enthusiasts submitted comments to the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), urging it to deny a proposal that recommends
raising the ethanol blend wall in gasoline from 10 percent (E10) to 15 percent (E15). Following a federal comment period that officially closed July 20, the National Marine Manufacturers Association® (NMMA®) submitted nearly 40 pages of comments(1) to EPA speaking out against the proposal, citing lack of scientific evidence to support a mandatory E15 increase. Several groups representing boaters and boating industry interests, including NMMA® and the Boat Owners Association of the Unites States® (BoatU.S.) advocate EPA denial of the E15 petition, at least until proper testing can be conducted to determine its effects on marine engines. The E15 proposal is of major concern to the recreational marine industry and boating enthusiasts, as it has never been independently tested for use with marine engines and harbors potential to cause a multitude of problems affecting engine functionality, reliability and safety, in addition to degrading fiberglass boat tank walls. In March, Growth Energy, a pro-ethanol lobbying organization, and 54 ethanol producers petitioned EPA to allow an increase in the amount of ethanol in gasoline. After an initial comment period that drew significant input from concerned boaters, the marine industry, marina operators and other boating groups, EPA
extended the comment deadline to July 20. Once EPA evaluates all submitted comments, it will make a final determination on the E15 proposal by December 1.

Why should I care?
The EPACT2005 (Energy Policy Act), Public Law 109-058 requires the use of increased renewable motor fuels. In most areas of the U.S., ethanol is the most readily available renewable fuel that can be added to conventional gasoline without major changes. Currently, E10 fuel is the answer to this requirement. All current models as well as most marine engines built since the 1980s have been designed with fuel system components that are tolerant of fuel containing ethanol up to ten percent. However, the effects E10 fuel, though positive for conservation
measures, can still damage marine engine systems. When introduced into the fuel tanks of marine engine systems, E10 fuel, like E15 fuel, can also dissolve fuel system components, creating contaminants that cause plaque to form, which may ultimately lead to the destruction of the engine itself. Many marine manufacturers are trying to mitigate the risks associated
with E10 fuel by offering special products, like the Yamaha 10 Micron Filter. Increasing ethanol content from E10 to E15 could have potentially more serious consequences for your customers. Modern marine engines are already subject to the negative effects of E10 and are certainly not designed, calibrated or certified for use with gasoline containing more than 10 percent ethanol. In fact, Recreational boat warranty documents and manufacturers’ owner’s manuals currently advise
boaters to avoid using gasoline containing more than 10 percent ethanol. Use of E15 in marine engines could possibly void existing warranties and damage motors and fuel systems.

A Publication Dedicated to Profitability and Customer Satisfaction
YamahaMarine Retail Partner continued on page 2
Legislative Edition

What can I do about it?
If you or your customers are interested in learning more about E15 and its potentially serious and harmful effects on marine engines, visit the NMMA® website(2). Everyone with a stake in recreational boating is encouraged to contact their local Senators and Representatives and speak out against mandatory E15 requirements. NMMA® also has tool on its website to
locate the appropriate elected officials in your area(3).
Lin ks:
1. http://www.nmma.org/lib/docs/nmma/gr/
policy/NMMA_Comments_to_EPA,_E15_Waiver,_
Docket_ID_No._EPA-HQ-OAR-2009-0211_v.6_Final_
072009.pdf
2. http://www.nmma.org/government/
federal/?catid=1543
3. http://capwiz.com/nmma/dbq/officials/
_______________________________________
Stateside
Texas
Boater Education/Safety/Licensing
H.B.3108, sponsored by Texas Representative Tan
Parker (R-Texas), establishes an interim study of recreational
boating safety(1). The bill, signed by Texas
Governor Rick Perry on June 19, calls for creation of a
three-member advisory panel on boating safety. The
panel will conduct a study that examines ways to improve
on-water safety, including: Evaluating the effects
boater education; requiring every boater to carry liability
insurance; and ways to increase law enforcement.
Link:
1. http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodocs/81R/billtext/
html/HB03108F.htm
Contact Rep. Parker
http://www.house.state.tx.us/members/dist63/
parker.php
Louisiana
Boater Education/Safety/Licensing
Sponsored by Representative Nickie Monica (R-La.),
H.B. 636 raises the minimum age of persons aboard a
vessel that are required to wear life jackets(1) from 12
years and under to 16 years and under. This is perhaps
the oldest requirement for life jacket use in the nation.
The exception is for persons involved in commercial
fishing operations; for this purpose, the required age
for life jacket use is reduced to 13 years and under.
Link:
1. http://www.legis.state.la.us/billdata/streamdocument.
asp?did=668796
Contact Rep. Monica
http://house.louisiana.gov/H_Reps/members.
asp?ID=57
_______________________________________
Louisiana
Boat Titling
Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal recently signed H.B.
478 into law. The bill, sponsored by Representative
Joe Harrison (R-La.), provides for voluntary titling of
outboard motors(1) within the Louisiana Department
of Wildlife and Fisheries. The program is designed to
work in conjunction with the NMMA®-supported boat
titling program, which was passed in the state two
years earlier.
Link:
1. http://www.legis.state.la.us/billdata/streamdocument.
asp?did=668791
Contact Rep. Harrison
http://house.louisiana.gov/h_reps/members.
asp?id=51
2
continued from page 1
This document contains many of Yamaha’s valuable trademarks. It may also contain trademarks belonging to other companies. Any references to other companies or their products are for identification
purposes only, and are not intended to be an endorsement.
Chris & Kelly Haretos
Formally of s/v Cat Tales, 36081
Boynton Beach, FL
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