PDQ OWNERS FORUM

Hey all,

I seem to be getting some water in the port rudder compartment ( the water tight compartment that lives underneath the propane locker on the port side). From the volume of water and when it happened, it's clear that it's not rain water ( because I'm on lake Michigan, it's not always easy to tell rain water from "sea" water).
I must admit that one of the things I've never really understood on this boat is exactly how the rudder post assembly works. Is there a stuffing box in there? All I can see from the inspection port is what seems to be a fiberglass piece from the bottom to the top of the compartment. It seems like this may enclose the rudder post?

Does anyone have any ideas on this?

Thanks,
Brendan

Brendan,

We have a 1991 36 Classic, I added 4" PyHi access ports to both of rudder compartments as every now and then water accumulates in there and for no particular reason or at least I haven't found the source yet. Once time there was almost a foot of water in one side when we first bought the boat. I pumped it dry and it has seems to stay that way for the most part. The PyHi's make it easy to access with a pump, plus you can open them on dry days to air out the compartment (remove some of the condensation). I'm not sure how the rudder post is set up.

Hope this helps,

Mike

We are trying to solve the mystery of water in our starboard compartment!

The older PDQ's, mine is 1993, have chain plates which are in the water when loaded for cruising. These eventually leak and water wil accumulate in the holds.

Thanks everyone,

I'm pretty sure that it isn't the chain plate, since I had the same amount of water at the end of last season (which I pumped out), and I had the chain plate rebedded this past winter by the great Dan Rankin.
So I guess that I'm still focused on something with the rudder assembly. If anyone else has any other ideas, please let me know. If I find out any more I'll report back.

We have a 1995 PDQ 36 LRC (# 47). I discovered water in both the starboard & port hulls a couple years after buying the boat when I had it on the hard for some outfitting. I was exploring the boat & when I opened the inspection ports (in the engine compartment aft bulkhead), I found water & pumped it out. This past summer I hauled the boat & added the extensions from I got from Dave Kane. Opening up those "water-tight" compartments to access the backstay nuts, we found a good deal of water - almost 50 gal in the port hull, less than 10 in the starboard hull, probably because of the holding tank (as a guess). We pump[ed both hulls out & I took "blind" shots of the port hull compartment - there are no obvious openings. The water does not empty when it's on the hard, so it must be getting in from above the water line.

There is a fiberglass tube for the rudder post & it looks as though it's open at the top of the compartment. I'm wondering if water is being forced up around the rudder post & then coming in from the top of that tube? I've been monitoring the situation much closer after installing the extensions & the boat definitely picks up more water in heavy seas (on an 8 hour trip from Miami to West Palm Beach in 15-18 kt SE winds & 4-6 foot seas, they went from empty to water 6" higher than the waterline in the port hull) ! Sailor friends who know much more than I all say there should be a bushing/seal at the top of the rudder post.

Has anyone pulled the steering quadrant(s) from their boat? Is there any type of seal for the rudder post?

Gary
s/v Inspiration

Hi Gary,
What you've found describes my situation EXACTLY. It's amazing to read, since I could have written it myself...
I think your observation that there is no draining when on the hard is very valuable. I've had the same experience.
I'm going to take a look again when I get to the boat this weekend. I hadn't noticed that the top of the fiberglass tube doesn't completely seal to the bottom of the deck. If that's the problem, does it make sense to try to apply new glass to the top of the tube to seal it off? It would be a hell of a job, trying to reach in there through the inspection port to apply the glass, but it could be done...

Thanks for the help,
Brendan

I have an older (1992) 36.

When you speak of the inspection port: My inspection ports are roughly 6 inch diameter round ones, and they're as far forward in the stern lockers as they can possibly go. In front of the steering quadrants.

I can look in, but there is NO WAY I can reach the rudder posts, nor can I reach the nuts on the chain plates at the stern. The inspection port has got to be 6 or more feet from the inspection port. I do get water in the starboard one, not the port one. I suspect it's time to drop the starboard rudder and see if there is an upper bearing issue because it only comes in when underway in heavier seas.

I have another issue (sorry, not trying to hijack this thread).

My backstay chainplates are under water (the bottom two bolts) and I would like to correct that. Unfortunately it looks like my only option is to cut a hole in the vertical (side) of transom steps to reach the backing nuts.

Anybody have any comments on this?

Was this error corrected somehow in newer boats?

Where are the chain plates for the back stays on the newer boats fastened to the hull? Anybody got any pics to show that?

I'm replacing the standing rigging soon and would like to replace the backstay chain plates and move them. Not sure where to though nor do I know how to get to them.

Comments and thoughts would be appreciated.

P.S. - if this is a new thread I'd be happy to move it to a new post. Let me know if it is too much of a hijack.

Hi Carib,

A few thoughts. I believe that the length of the rudder compartment may be reduced in the LRC models in order to make room for the diesel engines. I'm not sure, though. There is an inspection port at the front (bow end) of the port rudder locker in my boat. This inspection port is at the very aft end of the diesel engine. Sticking my arm in there, I can easily reach the fiberglass case for the rudder post.

Regarding the chain plates, almost every 36 I've seen has the bottom end of the chain plates in the water. It's even lower on the LRCs, since the Yanmars weigh so much. I have seen boats ( can't recall whose) which have a small inspection port on the vertical riser of one of the transom steps. If you were to install such an inspection port, make it small (just big enough to get your hand in there) and make sure you get a good bond on the port with 5200, since there will be plenty of water splashing on the transom.

With the inspection port, you could reach in and check the backing nuts on the chain plate. It's worth checking, since Dave Kane told me that his were simply glassed in and had no nuts on the bolts!!
If the fiberglass behind there doesn't feel good, I'd detach the back stays and chain plates (attach halyards to the aft part of the toerails as temporary backstays), then let the area dry and reglass the backside.
Then replace the bolts and refasten the nuts.

Hope this helps.

Brendan,

We had ports on Second Wind (vertical Risers/Step). Although they were placed to facilitate a build up of the lower step, they were useful in pumping accumulated water overboard. We never discovered the source, and it was never that much of a problem.

I had replied in a PM but thought I'd share my comments. I've owned two LRC models. The first had Volvo saildrives and the rudders were not protected by a skeg. The present one(for sale) has yanmars with skeg protected rudders. The first boat had a bent rudder shaft which I had to pull and repair. My thought is that those folks that are getting large amounts of water may want to check the upper rudder tube joint as that would be the place of greatest stress in the event of hitting something with a rudder especially if one side collects more than the other. I check all of the w/t compartments yearly and occasionally have to pump a small amount, usually less than a gallon, which I chalk off to condensation. With regard to transom access since not two boats were alike my first one had the holding tank in the forward lazarette whereas this one has it built into the bottom sbd transom step. I had to replace a grab rail on the port side so I put a access plate on the stair riser to gain access to the nuts. As mentioned just be sure to get a good seal when attaching plate.

Thanks Bob,

Can you describe what you mean by the "upper rudder tube joint"? It's pretty difficult to tell how the whole system is put together...

Essentially if you can picture a cross section with the bottom of the hull and a parallel plane which would be the surfaced you see when you open the lazarette the rudder post passes through a fiberglass tube that is bonded to the two parallel planes. Now visualize the rudder hanging down and apply a force against the bottom of the rudder. The lower bond(hull) is the pivot point of the force so the greatest strain is at the top joint. Following though the scenario you are in seas that regularly wash in and out of the aft scuppers bathing the upper joint in water. This is my theory as to deciding that if one compartment has a lot of water and the other has an incidental amount and neither leaks when the boat is hauled it has to be at the top.

Some of the following is supposition, the rest from observation and experience. On Page 83, hull 26, 1993, the rudder post is carried in a fiberglass tube fiberglassed (Tabbed) to the hull at the bottom and to the aft compartment deck at the top. There are nylon (or some other rigid, self lubricating white plastic) bearings at top and bottom. There are pretty close tolerances, but these are not sealing bearings.
The air tanks around the rudder (that's really what they are for) fill up with fresh water. The boat sits in salt water. Ergo, its rain water. Rain that falls on the boat flows aft along the toe rails, and pours into the hatch. The little lip around the edge of the hatch is supposed to catch the rain and drain it overboard. That doesn't happen after the first leaf/seed/spider nest blocks the 1/4" drain hole. Instead, water accumulates in the compartment below. If you have water-tight access ports, the water rises to the level of the scuppers on the sides of the hull. I don't have water-tight access ports. so every time it rains a half an inch, I get a gallon or two in the air tanks. If I replaced the ports, they would still be under water. [here begins a litany of rationalization:] so even if they didn't leak right away, they would eventually. What I need to do is lower the scuppers, raise the ports, keep the drain clean, and/or make the drain hole bigger. All of these options are currently [ahhh, errr] "under study".

Here is a different take on the solutions offered above: The lower rudder bearing is actually in a low pressure area. Water would not be forced up there; air is sucked down. The greatest load is at the bottom bearing, the fulcrum. It carries the sum of the loads applied on the blade and the upper bearing.

I find that if there is water in the area (I think) you all are referring to, there is also water in the area above the sealed section. The starboard area where the transom shower, steering quadrant and autopilot control live.